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Since that awful day, I've felt we all need to make a great mental push to try
and find alternate sources of energy. The reasoning being that many of our conflicts
seem to revolve around economies needing oil to continue running. If we didn't
need oil, we wouldn't fight to secure its flow, and the world would be a more
peaceful place. Does that make sense?
No -- what a load of crap!
With the advent of modern agriculture in the 1800's, people no longer needed
to fight over food, yet it resulted in the largest land grab in human history
(including the farm I'm sitting on). Famine as a weapon has been fairly popular
too. With modern transportation, people no longer needed to go raid horses,
instead we made tanks and raided continents. With steam engines we harnessed
so much cheap energy that even slaves weren't competitive. This spawned an incredible
assortment of high powered meat grinders, each one better than the last. So
then, thinking everything would be peachy if there was a endless supply of free
energy, is, umm, pretty optimistic I guess. At best it would make invading cheaper,
but surely it would be coaxed into blowing things up.
Clearly 'world peace' won't be invented, nor will mutual respect be battery
operated.
I know what you are thinking though -- "but Robin, I have so much more
respect for you since you got that new laptop". Well that is true, there
is no question that people respect you more if you have cool stuff, and respect
is obviously the foundation of all lasting peace. I guess in that sense, science
could save us. Probably we could attain ten years of global harmony by getting
everyone a super cool cell phone. And I mean like really sleek design, maybe
a translucent case, and so uber compact that we couldn't possibly use it to
club each other to death. Might be worth a try.
Ok, back to plotting our destruction. Basically there are two types of energies
that we use. One is 'unlocking' energy that is inside something. Burning wood,
coal or oil releases stored chemical energy, splitting an atom releases atomic
energy. People like this type of thing because it scales well. If you want more
energy, you just add more product -- it happens on your schedule.
The second category of energy harnesses potential energy differences that naturally
get replaced. If you think of a kid sitting in a wagon at the top of a hill,
obviously there is energy to be had in this situation. However, as we learn,
once she gets to the bottom it takes just as much energy to drag the wagon back
up the hill, so there is no net gain. Hydro dams work much like this, except
nature kindly brings the wagon back up the hill for us, in the form of upstream
rain. Wind power is replenished by nature bringing air back to the original
side and blowing it against the props again. Tidal power, solar power, even
food all work like this. Actually so do coal, oil and wood, however they also
borrow the wagon for fifty to fifty thousand years, so it isn't really the same
thing. This type of energy generally is harder to scale, as it is bound by the
rate of replenishment. No matter how big your dam, you can't generate more electricity
than the river volume (and lay of the land) allows. For this you need more dams.
This type of energy also tends to require more space as you scale. We tend to
think of this type as 'cleaner', however because the required area increases
as it scales it can be a pretty destructive solution. Imagine covering the US
midwest with solar panels for example, and then imagine cleaning this up when
they wear out. Having lived near hydro dams I can attest that they aren't without
environmental and human costs either.
The nice thing about the replenishable energy is that it can be very personal.
A small windmill can pump water for cattle, but even if every ranch gets two,
it's hard to imagine a way of getting all that power to wipe out a city. So
it seems a sensible goal that one day everyone's roof tiles may be made of solar
panels, and favorable hilltops are dotted with wind generators. Of course this
would free up massive amount of energy for other beautiful purposes, so it could
still be death by a thousand pin pricks. A thousand pin pricks an one thirty
mile wide ion blast that is.
When thinking of such systems, what we really need to think of is ways nature
will carry our wagon back to the top of the hill. If that can happen, we can
generate energy off the difference. Nature pushes some things around in a fairly
constant and predictable manner. For example,
- air (wind, typhoons, rising hot air)
- water (ocean currents, tides, rivers, waves, rain, glaciers)
- land (volcanoes, sand dunes, mountains, continental drift)
- denser matter (sinking oil tanker, rising oil slick, helium balloon)
- energy (lightning, fire, sunrays, sound, magnets)
- life (plant growth, hamster wheel, trip to fridge)
- big things (planets, moons, stars)
- small things (atoms, molecules, Belgium)
One thing that is continually intriguing is electrolysis. It is neat for a
few reasons. Water is abundant, and is at the root of many current energy generations
systems (like water mills and dams) because it is heavy and brought uphill by
nature. It can be changed to hydrogen and oxygen, which will explode. Not only
is it easy to generate useable energy from exploding water, the flash and loud
bang really gives you a sense of being powerful and unstoppable. Third thing,
is hydrogen gas is very light weight, so it can cause heavy objects to defy
gravity. It also really expands -- 1 liter of water produces around 44,000 liters
of hydrogen gas, and 22,000 liters of oxygen gas. Clearly a good thing that
water doesn't make you fart. Surprisingly, it doesn't take much more energy
to break down water under really high pressures.
There are a lot of potentials energies at play here, lets make a hypothetical
system taking advantage of a few of them. Yes this probably wouldn't work in
real life, as nothing is 100% efficient. However, the idea is that in a gas
form, hydrogen floats, and when 'burned' the resulting water falls. In the animation
below, nature is bringing a wagon of water up the hill for us - the hydrogen
because it floats, and the oxygen because wind replaces it.
There are three forms of energy being utilized here; gravity rolls the cart
down the hill, density differences bring it back up, and chemical energy is
released when the hydrogen converts to water. The energy we input is the energy
needed to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen -- if this was 100% efficient
both ways things would be easy. But it ain't.
It would however be easy to do this at least a bit better, by increasing the
differences. For example, while a helium balloon floats in air, it isn't about
to carry away a small child. However, if you put that same balloon underwater,
it has an incredible upwards force. One idea could be to take this underwater
then. Going down is pretty easy, just make your machine out of iron and call
it unsinkable. As it falls, props could cause the main body to spin one way,
and an outer fan to spin another, generating electricity all the way down. Near
the bottom it takes this electricity and by way of electrolysis, it fills some
sort of balloon with hydrogen and oxygen gas. This causes the total density
of the system to decrease, so it now rises (generating electricity all the way
up). Once at the top, the hydrogen and oxygen are burned (to create a bit more
energy), the energy is siphoned off, and it begins to sink again. If you had
deep water, like say off the coast of California or Japan, not only would you
get longer dives, but you would get immense pressure changes, which could also
be used to generate energy (eg. conceptually like the pressure loading a spring
or something).

These things could be self contained, only needing a station at the surface
to capture the electricity. One station could handle many of them because of
the delays between surfacing. Things like battery weight aren't an issue, because
you want the bottom to be heavy anyway. There are no high tech materials involved,
so it should be reasonably cheap to make. It would scale easier, because the
'surface' it takes up is underwater.
I realize this looks a bit like a 'perpetual motion machine', and of course
they don't exist. I'll try to explain why I don't think so, and where the extra
energy is coming from (and I may be proven wrong here). You can think of the
electrolysis being neutral (minus efficiency loss of course, and a slight bit
extra because electrolysis requires slightly more energy under very high pressures).
The H2 and O2 really are just acting like a battery, storing energy from the
battery in the gases. At the top, the energy is returned to the batteries. So
the extra energy is something like the potential energy of a very large inflated
rubber dingy sitting a few miles underwater, and maybe some extra if you can
take advantages of pressure differences. If that potential energy is greater
than the loss due to the inefficiency of electrolysis, then you should be getting
extra energy.. Not sound? Please let me know, I'm no engineer : ).
posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 6:12 AM
Feedback
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Posted @ 9/7/2004 8:31 AM
I think the laws of physics mean this isn't possible....
it would probably turn out that you couldn't generate enough electricity to manufacture a sufficient amount of hydrogen needed to lift the weight of the device...
but even if it does generate enough electricity to power is own motion - it wouldn't produce any useful energy as it uses all it creates to resurface and continue its cycle.
It wouldn't be perpetual either as eventually the moving parts would wear out....interesting concept though.
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Posted @ 9/7/2004 9:06 AM
We need an open source energy and telecommunications forum. Take control away from the oil thugs!
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Posted @ 9/7/2004 9:16 AM
hi robin,
some great ideas there, but i have serious doubts about this actually working out.
as you said yourself, this sounds a bit like a perpetuum mobile. well, to me it seems like this absolutely sounds like one. see, i'm not an engineer as well, but i think by definition alone, a machine producing more energy than it consumes is a perpetuum mobile and therefore impossible..
my guess would be that all the small things costing efficiency of the system here and there sum up to an amount bigger than what is produced in total:
- the energy needed to drive the dynamo would decrease speed of sinking/ascending, which in turn would decrease the amount of energy produced by the dynamo
- the energy lost because of the electrolysis not being 100% efficient would make this negative, not neutral as you said
- the apparatus would have to carry "dead weight" in form of everything except the stores gas / liquid with it on the way down _and_ up
- most probably some more stuff escaping me
as i said, i'm no engineer as well, but as far as i can see, the factors compromising the performance of the system just have to bring the efficiency to or below 100% for it to conform to the law of conversation of energy.
nonetheless, you are completely right about the need to come up with better ways to generate - or, better, transform - energy. i guess we will have to increase the efficiency of existing systems - be it dynamos exploiting regenerated energy or engines using fossil fuel - or come up with ways to utilize sources of energy left unused as of now.
another point is that we will need to use the energy we transformed way more efficient. this could be done by improving a large number of small things - like using better light bulbs or belgium not completely lighting their entire highway-system all night - and/or increasing the efficiency of a smaller number of core components of our energy usage-cycle - like deploying better ways to transport electrical energy over long distances.
anyways, i really appreciate your writing this essay, nice style..
cheers,
till
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Posted @ 9/7/2004 12:27 PM
Robin,
Most enjoyable analysis. Nice work.
Just a couple of physics comments.
The buoyant force that you're using to raise your machine is equal to the weight of the fluid displaced. (Archimedes' Principle) That is, find the volume of the machine, then from this calculate the weight of the water that would ordinarily occupy that volume. The upward, buoyant force is equal to that weight. On the way, down, the machine is heavier than an equal volume of water, so it sinks.
To get back up, the buoyant force must be greater than the machine's weight. Thus the machine must get larger. Thus, the gas can't stay inside.
So you'd need to let those gases expand into a shape larger than the machine. So the bladders can't be confined inside.
Seemingly not a problem. Since you're converting something from liquid to gas it has to expand. But notice that the gas has to expand, outside the ship, against the high pressure water.
Here's where it gets a bit dicey - that perpetual motion alarm does start to go off.
Consider an analogy. If you connect a hand-crank generator to a motor, you can turn the motor by cranking the generator. But if someone starts to hold onto the shaft of the motor a bit, you have to crank harder to provide more input work than before since you're producing more output work. It seems like magic How could the generator know about the motor. But it can be explained with a bit of electromagnetism voodoo. Let's skip that.
The same problem would occur with the expanding gas.
To dissassociate that water into gas, thus expanding it, your battery would have to do a huge amount of extra work relative to what it would do at the surface.
I'm guessing that the outside pressure on the bladder would inhibit the dissasociation and expansion from occuring just like you could almost stop the generator from moving by holding the motor.
On a positive note. All the "free lunches" that you mentioned like water and wind power are all beholding to that big free lunch in the sky - the sun. The jury is still out on who wound it up originally (4 kyr - 12 Gyr or so) ago, but it continues to crank out cheap energy almost as fast as certain financial forces can remind us not to look at the sun.
The real forces to be reckoned with are big and fat and sluggish and in seemingly endless supply.
Chuck
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Posted @ 9/7/2004 3:10 PM
I think the reason why it won't work is quite simple actually: to expand the gas, you have to work against the pressure of the surrounding fluid. That takes energy, and though I didn't do any calculations, I wouldn't be surprised to find that this energy is precisely the energy you'll get from the buoyant force.
It would be interesting if someone had the time to actually do the calculations.
My two cents.
Now, it's certainly a nice attempt at perpetual motion and an excellent problem to give to physics students.
Oh, and the thing about Belgium was really rude. Of course, you know that in some languages, Belgium is the foulest of words?
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Posted @ 9/7/2004 5:40 PM
I mostly agree with everyone pointing out that you'll require more energy than perhaps you're producing to overcome the tremendous pressures that come with that great a depth. However, I'm more cautious when it comes to tossing something out with the scientific cop-out of 'perpetual motion'. You simply need more energy, and more energy is there for the taking. Why not be more selective about where you drop the device and allow a little geo-thermal tag-teaming. Drop it on a 'hot-spot'. Turn it into a sterling engine (however that's spelled) as well. The heat energy can be used to further excite the gases in the bladder.
I still caution that as the device begins to ascend, that same heat energy will dissipate, and the system could still easily find stasis. Even so, the answer is in the engineering. Don't be discouraged by being told you've broken that most holy of commandments - 'thou mustn't produce more energy than thou are given'. Find a way to circumvent it.
I'm working on the gory details of a similar system. Once I'm further along, I'd love to offer it up to criticisms here.
-David
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Posted @ 9/7/2004 6:08 PM
It's a really interesting idea that I'm having
trouble debunking completely.
However, anyone who's ever messed with electrolysis will tell you that it takes a friggin' ton of energy to produce teensy amounts of gas. That and it takes a lot of time.
I bet you have to winch the system up the rest of the way (because there isn't enough gas produced) and I bet the amount of energy spent doing so is right around what you get harvesting the hydrogen. The tiny anount of extra work required to do electrolosys under high pressure is probably exactly this same
missing energy...
But hey, how much less efficient is it than bombing middle-eastern civilians? I mean, really.
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Posted @ 9/8/2004 12:01 AM
Thanks for all the insights : ). I think it really comes down to, "Is this a closed system?". If it is, then clearly it wouldn't work. While it does seem like a 'perpetual motion machine', those usually come undone because they are shown to *not* be closed systems. Here I'm *hoping* to find that it isn't a closed system, but perhaps it is. Maybe I can list the steps here and someone can point out to me at what step it crosses the line and becomes a closed system...
If you have the first animation using a sail instead of a balloon, and require a strong steady wind to blow the cart up the hill, I think everyone can agree that this would work conceptually at least. The sail blows it up the hill, then the sail is knocked over at the top and it rolls down. Some of the energy from the ride down is used to raise a weight or something, at the bottom the weight falls, raising the sail.
Obviously this isn't a closed system, and that is why it works - it wouldn't get far without wind (or gravity). So step two is the balloon instead of the wind. Wind comes down to moving particles around to balance pressures, densities, temperatures etc. So with hydrogen in a balloon, you really are just causing your own wind in a sense. If we ignore the losses of electrolysis the energy generating the H2 and O2 can be canceled out due energy not being created or destroyed (being this is a hypothetical argument to prove a non closed system we can ignore the loss - obviously reality would be different). So here you have a seemingly closed system, yet the cart moves up and down the hill. At least I can't see where it wouldn't...
The thing is, it isn't the same cart. The downhill one is just a cart, and maybe a bit of water. It is much smaller than the uphill one, which would be one percent cart and 99 percent hydrogen balloon. This wouldn't do a thing if you didn't have density differences to float it up, gravity to pull it down -- and an infinitely replaced supply of oxygen at the top of the hill. This seems like a 'closed' system, but really we are totally depending on our 'canned' wind - obviously it wouldn't have a hope of working on the moon because there is no atmosphere doing the work to balance our system when to balloon is full.
Here's the other thing - the longer the hill, the longer the trip down, the more energy you will generate. The trip up is free once you start moving, up until you run out of either hill, or reasonably dense atmosphere. So even if it took a vertical mile before you generated enough energy to make up for the loss due to electrolysis, then you would still have a net gain if you wnet up two miles. The constraint is basically the size of the hill, or if you are just floating up rocks with propellers, then the height of the atmosphere.
Maybe a key point is to ask if it would still work if you had to carry up your own oxygen. I think that would depend on the relative density of O2+H2+H2 vs the density of air, right? But then what if the air was denser - like say water is? Certainly an oxygen balloon would float in water, even with a rock tied to it, and it the balloon was popped the whole thing would sink. So what we really care about is relative densities.
So that brings us to the diver thing. This seems really closed - and yeah, to me as well, that is why it has been bugging me so much. However it really isn't any different than the buggy with a balloon. At first I thought the pressure would cause the gas to dissolve in the ocean, but the bladder should stop that. Then it looked like the pressure would make it harder for the gas to expand (like Doug and Bertrand mentioned), however I was thinking you could discount that because the gas doesn't actually have to expand to fill the whole tank. At greater pressure, the compressed gas would still be less dense that what surrounds it so it would rise. As it moved upward it would expand to fill the tank, due to less pressure surrounding it.
I thought converting it to H2/O2 would require much more energy at great pressures (like boiling water at higher pressures takes more energy), but it isn't changing state here, it is a chemical reaction that (apparently) doesn't take much more energy at great pressures. So it isn't like it is trying to turn back to water, its that you had one heavy packed molecule and now you have three lighter ones that take up more space. So the density changes and it floats. In the diagram it looks like both machines are the same size, but on the way down it is mostly sea water -- the machine at this point is essentially the top tip and the bottom part. On the way up it has the added bladder. I should have made bars down the sides rather than a wall to illustrate that better. Certainly the bladder still has to touch the pressure of the sea though, but only enough to float in the surrounding pressure.
Also, it seems to me, the ride up and down is free, in that a longer ride requires no more energy than a short one. Once it starts to sink it keeps sinking, and once it starts to float it keeps floating. So if it is gathering energy at all in either direction, a longer ride would gather more, no?
The electrolysis is kind of a neutral agent, the energy you get from burning it is only to recover (as much as possible) the energy used to separate it. Really what you want is something that can convert from liquid to gas, and you are able to efficiently recover that energy in order to turn it back to a liquid. If it could be like a rechargeable battery, that was a gas when charged and a liquid when uncharged that would probably work better.
It lives or dies on whether it is a closed system, or an open system taking advantage of gravity and differences in volumes and densities after chemical reactions. And probably dies. Just I don't get it.
PS Wouldn't it be hillarious if you spent all kinds of money making a test thing like this, took it out to the ocean, and it just hit the bottom with a thud and stayed there? I just can't get that moment out of my head : ).
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Posted @ 9/8/2004 6:06 AM
as i was the one with the least profound technical answer to your idea, i will try to recourse to a logical analysis of the problem..
as i see it, when the apparatus is at sea-level, there is clearly energy to be had because of the potential energy stored in the machine.
this could be used to power a dynamo creating energy that's then stored in the battery.
this energy can then be used to get the machine back up part of the way (not the whole way as you have losses in form of friction and the dynamo and battery not working with 100% efficiency).
because you want to get up the whole way and want to gain some energy on top of that, you will have to get energy from outside the system (as you said yourself).
your idea was to use electrolysis to seperate hydrogen from oxygen, to - in a sense - create the energy in the form of differences in density to get the machine back up to sea level.
as i see it, this all hinges on whether there's more energy stored in water or in the gases it consists - and it seems like the latter is the case, for - as you said yourself - bringing together H2 and O2 and providing a spark will cause an explosion, so this seems to set free quite a lot of energy..
so it seems to me like you won't be able to gain more energy from seperating the gases than you have gained by transforming the potential energy stored in the machine by virtue of it being well above the ground.
whew, i hope this was at least partially comprehensible and doesn't contain to many severe logical flaws.. (well, maybe i should hope that it does and that the idea really works, as people fighting over Really Deep Areas Of Sea(TM), while not being good in and of itself, seems to be at least less of a problem than people fighting over inhabited areas that happen to contain oil.)
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Posted @ 9/8/2004 1:42 PM
I was going to make another comment about working against the pressure and how a gas cools when it expands, but you've read that already.
Interesting thought #2: thermodynamics probably play a big role in that...
Interesting thought #3: your system is probably not closed as it is obvious that it stops working if you put it in a vacuum. A hope that it may work is that when the baloon rises, in reality it's the surrounding fluid that falls, pumping gravitational potential energy into the system. Now, when you deflate the baloon, you'll do it at a lower pressure so you'll get back less energy than you put in inflating. This may account for the pumped atmospheric potential energy...
The most interesting part of the process is clearly when the water is turned into hydrogen and oxygen. It would probably help to separate this process into simpler reactions: the chemical reaction itself at constant volume and pressure, and then the expansion. It's probably the only way you can establish a clean energy balance.
Anyway, the whole process is too subtle to be fully understood without doing the full calculations and the problem won't be solved until someone does it and/or exeriments it (which may not be reasonably feasible if the effects are too small).
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Posted @ 9/8/2004 9:57 PM
Yes, unforunately, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense: when you're inflating the balloon, you're pushing the surrounding fluid up to make room for it (that is, you're working against the pression). You can consider that you're pushing a column of fluid up (to the top of the atmosphere/sea). When the baloon rises, the fluid that was pushed upwards earlier falls back in place.
So even if you let the baloon rise to its maximum height (that is, when its internal density is the same as that of the surrounding fluid), exactly as much fluid has fallen back into place as you had previously lifted.
So things at best cancel each other, but most of the time, the system loses energy.
Here, I'm isolating the part that seems to provide the extra energy. In fact, it has to pump energy from some other part of the system, presumably the battery. The other parts of the system clearly conserve or lose energy, so I think that's it...
Sorry. Nice idea, though.
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Posted @ 9/9/2004 12:19 AM
Yeah, I think you are right. I think the image of some poor guy hanging on to the shaft of Chuck's motor, fingers bleeding and generator cursing, is exactly the problem. I didn't realize that the extra work to expand the gas was so significant, but I guess the world would make less sense without that. Here is are links that are pretty damning:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/electrol.html
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/firlaw.html#c2
I knew the first law of thermodynamics was important, I just thought it was the one that prohibited selling fireworks to children.
What would certainly work is if you had a outdoor car plug at the bottom, and the machine could use that to split the water. You find them all over Canada so they must be easy to install -- although getting a hydro crew down there might require a special vehicle.
Well thanks for all the comments and guidance, that had really been bugging me. Now it's just embarrassing me. Much better.
Cheers,
Robin
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Posted @ 9/18/2004 4:28 PM
Robin,
Lowering the device filled with water (shaped like a diving bell) over the deepest spots in the ocean would allow filling it with the gasses bubbling from the sea floor.
Then the rise would occur with no work, just harvesting the methane bubbles from deep sea vents.
The whole system could be one piece on the outside and hve gyro geneators inside... less maintaince.
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Posted @ 1/5/2007 7:18 PM
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Posted @ 1/8/2007 4:26 AM
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